5/3/2005

Hmmmmm (Occupation Forces)

Filed under: — Bravus @ 9:42 am

“Syria, Syrian troops, Syria’s intelligence services, must get out of Lebanon now,” the president said. “The world is beginning to speak with one voice. We want that democracy in Lebanon to succeed, and we know it cannot succeed so long as she is occupied by a foreign power…”

Uhuh.

21 responses to “Hmmmmm (Occupation Forces)”

  1. Sirdar Inc. says:

    One voice? Can we spell NWO?

  2. Jason says:

    Isn’t that a wrestling league?:)

  3. Bravus says:

    Nah man, it’s that rap crew with Ice Cube and Dr Dre…

  4. Bravus says:

    In posting it I was actually reacting more to President Bush’s comment that democracy can’t flourish in Lebanon while it’s occupied by a foreign power. Apparently, though, the *only* way democracy can flourish in Iraq is if it’s occupied by a foriegn power… Just seemed a little inconsistent to me.

  5. Jason says:

    Bravus that was NWA which stands for something COMPLETLY different.

  6. Bravus says:

    Hehehe – oops, forgot to include this guy —> πŸ˜‰

  7. Jason says:

    A better comparison than the US in Iraq is actually Iraq in Kuwait. Like Iraq, Syria’s argument in the Lebanon is a historic territory of Syria. They even use some of the same language that the Iraqi’s used when they invaded Kuwait. This echos similar arguments for aggression such as Germany in Austria and the USSR in Finland.

  8. Bravus says:

    Yeah, there’s definitely that kind of resonance in Bush’s comments. It’s wishful thinking, though, rather than any sort of reality: Russia isn’t in one voice with the US on most issues, and neither are France and Germany. And much of the Islamic world almost automatically opposes what the US says. Neither is Canada singing from the same music, for that matter! What Bush really means is ‘Americans (and Israelis?) are beginning to speak with one voice, and no-one else’s voice really matters…’

  9. Jason says:

    And frankly Bravus, I hate to sound like too much of a jerk, but the US acts like no one elses voice really matters because in large part, to Americans, they don’t. There is very little other countries can do that will influence American opinion or policy.

  10. Bravus says:

    Yeah, I think in a practical sense that’s true, and I don’t even really have a problem with it. What I object to is the Big Lie that Bush perpetuates in the quote above, though: that the whole world speaks with one voice. That’s something quite different to what you describe.

  11. Sirdar Inc. says:

    Jason, your “jerk” comment is so true. That is why around the world Americans are not well respected. If the Americans don’t get their way they will bully. We see it so much in the so-called NAFTA where if the Americans don’t play nice but expect everyone else to give in. Lots of war empires fell in history…and that history will repeat itself one day.

  12. Jason says:

    America tends to bully trade partners to some extent because we can, nobody can afford not to be a trade partner to the US. We buy something like 30% of the products made worldwide including a whole lot of Canadian and Mexican oil(probably thanks to NAFTA). In fact according the US Dept of Energy Canada is the largest single supplier of oil to the US, Mexico the second. This document is dated Dec 2004,
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petroleum_supply_monthly/current/txt/table_35.txt

  13. Sirdar Inc. says:

    You are right that Canada is the largest supplier of oil to the US. So what? That gives you the right to bully us? Nice friends you are. If you don’t treat friends nice, don’t expect to be treated nice back.

  14. Jason says:

    I’m not talking about rights I am talking about power. Clausewitz said the “War is an extension of politics…” Keegan pointed out that “Politics is the extension of economics…” As long as the US remains the largest trade partner of Canada the feelings of regular Canadians are irrelevant. Canada has to conform to many US demands to maintain the flow of US dollars northward. And by, “If you don’t treat friends nice,” I am confused can you provide me with some examples? I am not being facetious, we don’t here much Canadian news in US reports these days they are all body counts. Fox News in particular seems to have a policy that the word “terrorist” has to be used every 30 seconds or they will implode. πŸ™‚

  15. Sirdar Inc. says:

    Jason, Sorry about my tone in my last post πŸ™‚

    I’m talking about the NAFTA trade issues between Canada and the US. Canada has won pretty much all of the NAFTA trade challenges with the US but the US just ignores the rulings. In particular the softwood trade issue. Now it is the live cattle issue. What is really galling is the group R-CALF out of Montana, who managed to get some judge to halt the border opening have come up here and bought something like 30,000 animals because of the lower price they could buy them for since the US closed the border after the 1 BSE cow. Now it could take another 3 months before the border is open. There are more issues but I would have to do some searching as I don’t have them at the top of my head right now. But I will find some more and post them here with news articles.

    As for Fox having to say terrorist every 30 seconds, we actually think it is odd that the American people are so caught up in what the government feeds you through the media. It looks just like the news casts are mouth pieces for Mr. Bush and company. It really sounds to us…what the US calls the media in other countries…where they say the media is controlled by the government. Sounds like yours is too. Yes we do get to see and hear different views up here and for the life of us we can’t figure out how the American People believe half the crap. Not saying our media is squeeky clean. We have a different political system where the opposition checks out anything and everything to spread dirt all over the governement….basically makes them accountable. In the US we don’t see that happening.

  16. Paul says:

    America clearly doesn’t get how nuts it’s starting to look to the rest of the world. It really doesn’t. Somewhere between Roosevelt and Bush Jr., America stopped providing solid, exemplary global leadership, stopped looking young and started looking very, very old. And Americans, defensive to the last, just . . .don’t . . .get it.

    America is quickly becoming yesterday’s Europe: unashamedly imperialistic, clearly more driven by economic than political interests (except to the degree that they foster economics), and embarassingly (and dangerously) hypocritical in its “we-must-fight-for-democracy-even-if-it-means-acting-undemocratically” rhetoric. As one French minister said recently, the U.S. is the world’s last “Bismarckian Power” – “the last country to believe that the pinpoint application of military power is the critical instrument of foreign policy.”

    Too bad. America could have been great. Instead, it grew impatient, chucked its ideals, and settled for plain, old-fashioned empire building, all the while patting itself on the back for making the world “free.” In the words of Sting, “history will teach us nothing.”

  17. Paul says:

    P.S. Read the following article, “America Dreams Alone”. It’s a gooder.
    http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/01/309264.shtml

  18. Jason says:

    Sirdar don’t worry, your tone was fine. Very Canadian of you to apologize:) Fox is a great example of a right leaning network, remember it is owned by Rubert Murdoch (Austrailian born!) and leans very much to the right, balancing the often liberal CNN networks. As far as world media goes keep this in mind, when World War II was going on there were three television networks. No newpapers had a national circulation, no radio or print news reached national audiences. Nobody ever reported anything the government didn’t approve of. Case in point was the fact that FDR was wheelchair bound for years before his death. The networks made sure to alway film him from the waist up or seated in a chair to avoid letting viewers know he was ill. A few years back I saw the inside of Clinton’s rectum. In fact today reporters are protected from being forced to reveal sources on stories that are embarassing to the government by federal and state laws. Today there are still three networks, as well as MSNBC, CNN, Fox, and a host of other news channels. Two national newspaper, USA Today and the New York Times, as well as countless webportals and in the past few years the annoying increase is these “blogger” types :). All are lookng for the story and nothing read as good as a story about government failures. The funny thing is that Americans that are right leaning will always complain about the “liberal” media. Liberals will complain about the “Right wing” media. Remember that media outlets are staffed by people. They will lean both ways you usually just remember the ones you disagree with the most.

  19. Jason says:

    oh and Sirdar don’t forget we did illegally slap tariffs on imported steel recently which got us in hot water with the WTO.
    Paul, American democracy has failed to flourish in part because many societies cannot control a strong executive office. Many of the South American dictators began as elected Presidents and refused to step aside. In the history of the United States nobody has tried to remain in office after their term expired. They have gone to court to contest election results, but that is what election law and the court system is there for. There are examples of the President ignoring orders of the other branches, most notably President Jackson’s refusal to stop the relocation of Native American tribes when the Supreme Court ordered him to. More importantly the US military would not support such a person, they take seriously their oath to the Constitution and none of them want to spend the rest of their life in prison. Military officers often aspire to private sector jobs upon retirement and “treason” makes job-hunting soooo difficult. So maybe American Democracy isn’t for everybody. In fact American style democracies are not being established in either Afghanistan or Iraq, which the article (really an editorial) fails to mention. Some lines in particular are,

    Actually the EU and other regional pacts were set up by the US to facilitate the management of its empire.

    Well, The EU came out of the EEC which was created by the Treaties of Rome in 1956, it didn’t become the EU until 1993. It was however first suggested that Europe form some type of diplomatic community separate from the rest of the world in 1946 by Churchill. A large competitive economic and political entity is last thing the US wanted. NATO of course the US had a large hand in creating, of course the US did not run NATO, the leadership rotated between the member nations, kind of like the EU.
    http://europa.eu.int/abc/history/index_en.htm

    A former French minister muses that the United States is the last “Bismarckian power”β€”the last country to believe that the pinpoint application of military power is the critical instrument of foreign policy.

    Was this the French minister that accepted Iraqi promises of cheap oil if they would oppose the US invasion? Remember this is France, who has more than a little blood on their own hands. Algeria, Vietnam, and now the Ivory Coast, France has always been more than a little willing to use force when it is in their interest.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4057769.stm
    Russia opposed US too until we quit bitching about Chechnya. As far as the “last country” comment lets not forget that if somebody hits Iran we will have to get in line behind Israel. Iran has admitted it is building nukes and that always makes the Israelis a bit jumpy. Really though America is the last country that is able to hit a target anywhere in the world within hours of the President giving the order, now with the Global Hawk and the other pilotless aircraft they can do it without risking US pilots. If this option was available to other countries they would avail themselves of it more frequently.
    We’ll see, but I doubt that emerging governments patterned after Sweden, which has a stable population, will apply well to the nations of Asia and South America where rapidly expanding populations will put extraordinary strains on large social service institutions. I hope they have the money to pay for it all.

  20. Sirdar Inc. says:

    Jason…sounds to me like you would be a good Canadian. Come on up, you just might like it!! Oh…but bring a winter coat πŸ™‚

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